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LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Our governing documents state that "any director may be removed from the board with or without cause by a majority of the members. Can this be done at the annual meeting?

And can we remove more than one, maybe all?
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/11/2016 5:36 PM
Our governing documents state that "any director may be removed from the board with or without cause by a majority of the members. Can this be done at the annual meeting?

And can we remove more than one, maybe all?

Depends on exactly what your Bylaws state.
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
That quote is from the Bylaws
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/11/2016 5:36 PM [emphasis added]
Our governing documents state that "any director may be removed from the board with or without cause by a majority of the members. Can this be done at the annual meeting?

Can it be done at the annual meeting? Yes, providing it's on the agenda and notice requirements are met.
The way to get it on the agenda is to petition the Board for a meeting of the membership to recall xyz director.

Keep in mind, as I emphasized in your statement, a majority of the members is not the same as a majority of votes cast or a majority of members in attendance at a meeting. It is truly 50% plus 1 (or 50% rounded up) of the membership.

Therefore, if you have 200 lots, you would need 101 votes to remove a Director.

If you have 175 lots, you would need 88 votes (175 divided by 2 rounded up = simple majority)
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Tim - Great you caught that! I misquoted - actually states:

"Any director may be removed from the board, with or without cause, by a majority VOTE of the members of the association."

Our quorum requirements are 10%

345 homes x 10% = 35 to meet quorum; then the majority vote would be 18 assents. Is that correct?

LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Or say there are 75 members present, then would need 38 assents -- correct?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
This is where it can be interpreted differently.

An argument can be made for the majority of votes cast.

An argument can be made for the majority of the membership.

If I were on the Board, I would interpret it as a majority of the membership and let the members who started the recall decide if they care enough to take the issue to court for a ruling on what the phrase means.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/11/2016 8:27 PM

Our quorum requirements are 10%

345 homes x 10% = 35 to meet quorum; then the majority vote would be 18 assents. Is that correct?


Having a quorum only allows business to be conducted.

The number of votes required will depend on the number of members who show up and have voting privileges or the total membership (depending on what how the phrase is interpreted).
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
I agree with Tim. It will take a majority of all homeowners (in your case 173 voting yes) to remove an elected member from the BOD.

LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
So should our bylaws be written differently so there's no room for different interpretations?

What do your bylaws state?
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Linda

It is more how you are reading it. You are reading it to say by the majority of the members present at the meeting versus the majority of all owners.

Typically a Special Meeting would be called to deal with this versus doing it t the Annual Meeting.
ha
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Does this section on quorums make a difference in the interpretation?

Section 4 - Quorum
"The presence at the meeting of members entitled to cast, or of proxies entitled to cast, one-tenth (1/10) of the votes of each class of membership shall constitute a quorum for any action except as otherwise provided in the articles of incorporation, the declaration, or these by-laws, if, however, such quorum shall not be present or represented at any meeting. The members entitled to vote thereat shall have power to adjourn the meeting from time to time, without notice other than announcement at the meeting, until a quorum as aforesaid shall be present or be represented.'
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/12/2016 4:55 AM
Does this section on quorums make a difference in the interpretation?

Section 4 - Quorum
"The presence at the meeting of members entitled to cast, or of proxies entitled to cast, one-tenth (1/10) of the votes of each class of membership shall constitute a quorum for any action except as otherwise provided in the articles of incorporation, the declaration, or these by-laws, if, however, such quorum shall not be present or represented at any meeting. The members entitled to vote thereat shall have power to adjourn the meeting from time to time, without notice other than announcement at the meeting, until a quorum as aforesaid shall be present or be represented.'

Read the bold above. It basically says if it takes so many to do something, it still takes that many.

You are assuming a simple Quorum will override other requirements such as 50% of owners

As an example. A Covenant says it takes 2/3rds of all owners agreeing to change a Covenant. This is 2/3rds of all owners not simply 2/3rds of a Quorum.
StevenG9 (Florida)
Posts: 14
Posted:
Here's what my community Bylaws state

"REMOVAL OF OFFICER OR DIRECTOR FROM OFFICE

An Officer or Director may be recalled or removed from office with or without cause by a majority of the total voting interest present and entitled to cast votes at a special meeting of the members called for that purpose."

Our community has 267 homes. If 20 people attend the special meeting and 15 vote in favor removal. The removal stands?
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By StevenG9 on 08/12/2016 1:20 PM
Here's what my community Bylaws state

"REMOVAL OF OFFICER OR DIRECTOR FROM OFFICE

An Officer or Director may be recalled or removed from office with or without cause by a majority of the total voting interest present and entitled to cast votes at a special meeting of the members called for that purpose."

Our community has 267 homes. If 20 people attend the special meeting and 15 vote in favor removal. The removal stands?

Here is the potential problem. You have a quorum requirement for that special meeting before business can be conducted.

If you have a quorum requirement of a majority of homeowners, then 134 have to be present in some form for business to be conducted.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Last year we wanted to change our Quorum requirements from 50% to 20% to be able to conduct association business. We had to explain over and over and over that this did not change the % needed for other things like changing Covenants, Bylaws, removing a Director, etc.

No matter how we explained (it did pass), to this day some of our owners think that if we have a Quorum, the 20% can change the Covenants, Bylaws, etc. Wrongo folks. If it took say 2/3rds of all owners to approve a Covenant change before, it still takes 2/3rds to approve regardless of the 20% forum requirement.

StevenG9 (Florida)
Posts: 14
Posted:
Went can't even 15 people to attend a meeting.
StevenG9 (Florida)
Posts: 14
Posted:
We*
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
One way to assure a good turnout is to let it be known a dues increase will be discussed even if not discussed.

They will turn out.
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 08/12/2016 11:40 AM
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/12/2016 4:55 AM
Does this section on quorums make a difference in the interpretation?

Section 4 - Quorum
"The presence at the meeting of members entitled to cast, or of proxies entitled to cast, one-tenth (1/10) of the votes of each class of membership shall constitute a quorum for any action except as otherwise provided in the articles of incorporation, the declaration, or these by-laws, if, however, such quorum shall not be present or represented at any meeting. The members entitled to vote thereat shall have power to adjourn the meeting from time to time, without notice other than announcement at the meeting, until a quorum as aforesaid shall be present or be represented.'


Read the bold above. It basically says if it takes so many to do something, it still takes that many.

You are assuming a simple Quorum will override other requirements such as 50% of owners

As an example. A Covenant says it takes 2/3rds of all owners agreeing to change a Covenant. This is 2/3rds of all owners not simply 2/3rds of a Quorum.

Read "The presence AT the meeting of members entitled to cast"

The way I understand this: a member must be at the meeting in order to vote; therefore, it cannot be the whole membership

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Linda,

A quorum is only the minimal number of people required to conduct business.

It's typical that the CC&Rs require 2/3 of the membership to amend.
It's typical that directors are elected by a majority of votes cast (Plurality system
It's typical that the Bylaws can be amended with a majority of the membership.

Lets use a quorum of 10% and 100 lots in the membership

10 people show up in person or by proxy at the meeting:
Quorum is met, business may take place
Elections may be held
A vote for amending the CC&Rs can be held but would fail due to not having enough yea votes (only 10 possible votes when 67 yeas are needed)
A vote for amending the Bylaws can be held but would fail due to not having enough yea votes (only 10 possible votes when 51 yeas are needed)

60 people show up in person or by proxy at the meeting:
Quorum is met, business may take place
Elections may be held
A vote for amending the CC&Rs can be held but would fail due to not having enough yea votes (only 60 possible votes when 67 yeas are needed)
A vote for amending the Bylaws can be held and might be approved if 51 yea votes are received.
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By StevenG9 on 08/12/2016 1:20 PM
Here's what my community Bylaws state

"REMOVAL OF OFFICER OR DIRECTOR FROM OFFICE

An Officer or Director may be recalled or removed from office with or without cause by a majority of the total voting interest present and entitled to cast votes at a special meeting of the members called for that purpose."

Our community has 267 homes. If 20 people attend the special meeting and 15 vote in favor removal. The removal stands?

Your bylaws are clear that members must present to cast a vote. However, what are your quorum requirements?

Our bylaw address these issues in different sections is the cause of my confusion:

Article V - Board of Directors; Election; term of Office
*Section 2 Election - ... "at each annual meeting ..."
*Section 3 Removal of Directors - doesn't mention which meeting (annual or special)

Article X Meetings of Members
*Section 1 Annual Meetings
*Section 2 Special Meetings
*Section 4 Quorum - 10% except as otherwise provided, for example:

Amend Declaration - 75% (actually 67% thru CCIOA) of lot owners (345) signing an instrument. 232 required to pass
Amend Articles -----75% of the entire membership .............................................259 required to pass
Amend Bylaws ------- majority of a quorum of members present in person or by proxy ........... # present x 51%

Since the directors are elected at the annual meeting, it seems logical that they could be removed from there also.
However, if the membership didn't want to wait for the annual meeting, they could call for a special meeting to do it sooner.
* In our case, the special meeting would require a written by 20% of the members who are entitled to vote of ALL the votes (69)

Big job for us to get 69 signatures - seems easier and quicker to tack on to the annual meeting - 3rd week of October

LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Tim, we were posting close to the same time, so I'm just now reading your post

Your explanation is excellent and I completely understand it.

But that still doesn't clarify my original question of removing directors - which meeting? annual, special or either?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/13/2016 3:38 PM

But that still doesn't clarify my original question of removing directors - which meeting? annual, special or either?

As long as it's on the agenda, it can be done at the annual or at a special meeting (as notice requirements need to be met).

To get the issue on the agenda, you gather signatures for a meeting of the membership for the purpose of removing xyz director(s).

This was stated in my first post on this thread

Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 08/11/2016 6:04 PM
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/11/2016 5:36 PM [emphasis added]
Our governing documents state that "any director may be removed from the board with or without cause by a majority of the members. Can this be done at the annual meeting?


Can it be done at the annual meeting? Yes, providing it's on the agenda and notice requirements are met.
The way to get it on the agenda is to petition the Board for a meeting of the membership to recall xyz director.


LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Tim, I'm still confused. Guess I have to go back to school for "bylaws 101"

You did post the answer early on. But I think I just read it wrong - or am still reading it wrong

You stated "As long as it's on the agenda, it can be done at the annual or at a special meeting (as notice requirements need to be met).
To get the issue on the agenda, you gather signatures for a meeting of the membership for the purpose of removing xyz director(s)."

Our bylaws state that to request a special meeting, we need a written request from 20% of members. I get that.
But your second sentence seems to say that we need signatures just to get it on the agenda (even if there is already a meeting)

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
The members may not vote on anything at any meeting unless the entire membership receives proper notice that the vote is to be taken at a specific meeting (annual or special).

To give proper notice, the Board needs to have it on the agenda (which is set prior to the notice being sent out).

The membership gets a recall on the agenda by petitioning the Board for a meeting of the membership to recall Director xyz.

Once the petition is received, if it's close enough to the annual meeting, the Board can place the issue on the agenda and provide proper notice to the membership of the vote that is to take place and the time and place of the meeting.

If the notice for the annual meeting has already been sent, or the meeting is several months away, the Board would call a special meeting of the membership for the specific purpose identified in the petition.

JamesG11 (Florida)
Posts: 118
Posted:
Can't comment on Colorado law, but in Florida, by statute, special meetings must identify the issues to be discussed and voted upon. Any issues not identified in the notice of the special meeting are off-limits.

The practice for annual meetings, however, is different; if the membership wishes, it can vote to amend the agenda to take up "new" issues (provide, of course, that a quorum is in existence at the annual meeting).

However, whether even a quorum of owners at an annual meeting can vote to remove a director from office remains a complicated question in Florida. At a minimum, I would contend that the authority to do so would have to be explicitly set forth in the association's documents. IMO, unless such explicit authority exists in the association documents, the statutory framework would control. Under Section 720.303(10), Fla. Stat., the recall of any director has to be supported by a majority of ALL owner/members, not just a majority of those attending the meeting at which a quorum exists.

LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 08/14/2016 10:49 AM
The members may not vote on anything at any meeting unless the entire membership receives proper notice that the vote is to be taken at a specific meeting (annual or special).

To give proper notice, the Board needs to have it on the agenda (which is set prior to the notice being sent out).

The membership gets a recall on the agenda by petitioning the Board for a meeting of the membership to recall Director xyz.

Once the petition is received, if it's close enough to the annual meeting, the Board can place the issue on the agenda and provide proper notice to the membership of the vote that is to take place and the time and place of the meeting.

If the notice for the annual meeting has already been sent, or the meeting is several months away, the Board would call a special meeting of the membership for the specific purpose identified in the petition.


Let me try to be more specific;

Our annual meeting isn't until the 3rd week of October. Since there is time, can we petition for a recall to be held at this annual meeting without having the required signatures that are required for a special meeting?

LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JamesG11 on 08/14/2016 10:57 AM
Can't comment on Colorado law, but in Florida, by statute, special meetings must identify the issues to be discussed and voted upon. Any issues not identified in the notice of the special meeting are off-limits.

The practice for annual meetings, however, is different; if the membership wishes, it can vote to amend the agenda to take up "new" issues (provide, of course, that a quorum is in existence at the annual meeting).

However, whether even a quorum of owners at an annual meeting can vote to remove a director from office remains a complicated question in Florida. At a minimum, I would contend that the authority to do so would have to be explicitly set forth in the association's documents. IMO, unless such explicit authority exists in the association documents, the statutory framework would control. Under Section 720.303(10), Fla. Stat., the recall of any director has to be supported by a majority of ALL owner/members, not just a majority of those attending the meeting at which a quorum exists.


James, I agree that it is a complicated question.

I've read and re-read the CCIOA pertaining to this and I just get further confused.
JamesG11 (Florida)
Posts: 118
Posted:
Linda,

I cannot advise you on Colorado law, but found this link that may prove somewhat helpful (even though it is addressed to existing Boards):

http://www.hindmansanchez.com/resources/article/tips-board-facing-recall/

Good luck!
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/14/2016 1:46 PM

Let me try to be more specific;

Our annual meeting isn't until the 3rd week of October. Since there is time, can we petition for a recall to be held at this annual meeting without having the required signatures that are required for a special meeting?

No.

If you submit a petition with less then the required number of signatures (and I always encourage that you obtain more then the minimum needed), it would only be a suggestion that the Board places the issue on the agenda vs. a demand from the membership that the issue be resolved.

Keep in mind that you are wanting to recall a Director or two for failure to comply with the governing documents. Therefore, you should not try to skirt the requirements of a petition from the membership. In fact, during a recall effort, it's imperative that you comply with the requirements to the letter in order to defend the petition if it's called into question. I've heard of many recall efforts be dismissed for technicalities.

Our annual is also in the third week of October. Per our Bylaws, notices need to be mailed no later then October 1. However, we could send them out earlier.

Your goal is to meet any earlier then timetable.
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
James - Thanks for the link.
Even thought meant for the board, it would be very helpful for those wanting the recall to know too.

Tim - Thanks again

My confusion was our bylaws stating you need 20% of members' signatures ONLY to request a SPECIAL meeting - for whatever reason.
And I thought that if you didn't need/want a "special" meeting it could just be put on the agenda of the ANNUAL meeting.

Our bylaws weren't specific on this. And CCIOA read about like our bylaws.
..............................................................................................................................
BUT I researched the "Colorado Revised Nonprofit Act" I usually don't go there because CCIOA prevails since it was written especially for homeowners associations.

7-128-108 Removal of Directors
(1)(d) A director elected by voting members may be removed by the voting members only at a meeting called for the purpose of removing that director, ...
(1)(e) An entire board of directors may be removed under paragraphs (a) to (d) of this subsection (1)

AND

7-128-109 Removal of directors by judicial proceedings
(1) A director may be removed by the district court for the county in this state in which the address of the nonprofit corporation's principal office is located ... in a proceeding commenced either by the nonprofit corporation or by voting members holding at least ten percent of the votes entitled to be cast in the election of such director's successor, if the court finds that the director engaged in fraudulent or dishonest conduct or gross abuse of authority of discretion with respect to the nonprofit corporation ...
..................................................................................................................................

1) A special meeting - takes 20% of members' signatures (69)
2) Judical proceduring - takes 10% of members' signatures (35)

Seems easier to do #2 since the board has been dishonest in a number of ways.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/14/2016 4:14 PM

7-128-109 Removal of directors by judicial proceedings
(1) A director may be removed by the district court for the county in this state in which the address of the nonprofit corporation's principal office is located ... in a proceeding commenced either by the nonprofit corporation or by voting members holding at least ten percent of the votes entitled to be cast in the election of such director's successor, if the court finds that the director engaged in fraudulent or dishonest conduct or gross abuse of authority of discretion with respect to the nonprofit corporation ...
..................................................................................................................................

1) A special meeting - takes 20% of members' signatures (69)
2) Judical proceduring - takes 10% of members' signatures (35)

Seems easier to do #2 since the board has been dishonest in a number of ways.

If you have the money for an attorney, it would be an option.

Of course, you would also have to pay your share of the Associations defense (as that would be paid by the Association).

Add appeals, etc.

I'd suggest simply getting 20 to 25 percent in signatures.
It's cheaper and less time consuming.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Keep in mind that with a membership vote, you don't have to prove anything.

In a court of law, you will need to prove to the court that the Director:

fradulant or dishonest conduct.
See PLEADING AND PROVING ALLEGATIONS OF FRAUD OR DISHONESTY: MULLARKE -v- BROAD: USEFUL LINKS AND GUIDANCE

or

gross abuse of authority or discretion

Keep in mind that as volunteers, Directors may utilize the Business judgment rule defence.

You stated that the issue was compounded by several MC and several Boards. Therefore, proving that the this one or two individuals were more at fault then the entire Board, past boards or the various MCs from whom the Boards took guidance from and prepared the financial reports could be down right impossible.
StevenG9 (Florida)
Posts: 14
Posted:
We are a self managed HOA. 10 board members 2 who do absolutly nothing but attend meetings complain. I swear they think they are on a board for a charity. I questioned one (actually called her out) as to why she turns a blind eye on enforcing rules. And just complains later she sees it happening. In an email she says "I signed up for a board, not to run the day to day operations. Boards act on behalf of their neighbors, to get things done. The things that have been added to board members' duties (citations and such) were not expected of prior boards. "As far as issuing violations, that wasn't part of being on the board when I got on. It is a managers job and we don't have a manager."

We will never get enough to remove her. No one even runs for our board. Same have been volunteering for years.
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Tim - there you go again, making sense and providing all those useful links. I think you have magic powers!

In our situation, getting 80 or so signatures seems unreachable.

Most people here don't want to get involved at all and especially don't want to sign something like a recall. Some of them even feel that a bad board is better than none at all.

Maybe back to our original option of filing (or threatening) a complaint with DORA/RE for CAM violations.

I will attempt to read all that information you provided and check with the others too.

Thanks again

LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Steve,

Why do you have so many board members. Usually it's an odd number - so ties can be broken.
How large is your HOA?
StevenG9 (Florida)
Posts: 14
Posted:
267 homes. I'm. It sure what we have 10. I'll look back in the old docs from 40 years ago and see if it's always been. I've never thought of it. For the most part 8 of us are all on the same page and then we have the 2 tagging on bringing nothing to the table. Both stuck on what the board did 20 years ago. Have to constantly remind them we are an all ages community now since 1996
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
What do your governing documents say re directors? How many?
StevenG9 (Florida)
Posts: 14
Posted:

I didn't get a chance to pull the docs but I found out years ago we had a civic board and a matainance board. When it was consolidated to one board they voted on to have 10 instead of 8. Our president does not vote on board matters.
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Most important to know what your governing docs state on this and a lot of other issues you have

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